Retail Velocity After Launch: Hershey's Kate Kasch on Staying on Shelf
Three Velocity Lessons Every CPG Brand Leader Can Use Now
- Kate challenges the investor question of how many doors a brand is in. The metric that matters is units per store per week in the stores you already have, whether that is 10 or 10,000.
- A strong benchmark is ranking in the top 50% of items in the competitive set while matching or beating the closest comparable product on shelf.
- Define the category wide. Ranking second in a narrow niche means little if the product sits at 160th of 188 SKUs in the full frozen novelty set.
- Shoppers give a package roughly 8 seconds at shelf, compared with nine pages of content and reviews online, so the pack has to lead with the claim your shopper values most.
- A low-cost email survey showed GoodPop that real-fruit sugar was the deciding factor. Putting 100% fruit juice and no added sugar front and center produced a velocity impact almost immediately.
- A Costco buyer's test still holds: if the package cannot tell your story from 10 feet away, it is not ready for the shelf.
- Retailers want to serve their shopper but do not know your product, so bring numerical proof points, such as how a SKU turns at $5.99 compared with $12.99.
- GoodPop's sparkling juice launch earned distribution at Costco, Walmart, and more but did not turn. Kate's lesson: the team should have spent another year on validation.
- When velocity dips, go to the buyer first with data and a fix. If a senior leader has to ask your buyer what is wrong, you are too late.
Welcome to Cart Culture: Kate Kasch's Path From Wrigley to Hershey
0:08 – 1:17Emily Steele: Welcome! I'm excited that we're hosting Cart Culture on the precipice of October, which is crazy. I'll let some folks come in. If you've been to a Cart Culture before, one of my favorite things to do is ask you who you are, so fill in the chat. Kate, I think you'll find that super helpful, too, to see who's here and from what brands. What do you do? Are you an operator or a founder? What's your role? Anything you're really excited about for the conversation is helpful for us to understand as well, because if you've been before, you know we like to weave in a lot of the questions you may have for Kate or on a topic we're talking about. Oh my goodness, people are filing in, and the chats are starting to come in. You're going to see some peers and some friends.
1:17 – 2:45Emily: As those start coming in, I'll do a quick intro on a couple of slides and share what we're up to today, as well as what Cart Culture is, if you're new to this. Today we're talking to Kate Kasch, and I'm super excited, because I met Kate in real life in Austin, Texas, earlier this year. She has an incredible background and experience that I know will add so much value, and we'll unpack some of those topics. We decided to bring Cart Culture to life because we know about 83% of purchases still happen in retail to this day. We want to understand as much as we can about what drives in-store success: what's happening culturally, what's happening through community, and what's happening through marketing strategies. What's working to influence the consumer at the cart, the actual physical cart? We want to dive into that retail perspective and what shapes buying behavior.
Emily: For anyone who has not heard of Hummingbirds, welcome. My name is Emily, and I'm the cofounder and CEO. My passion is bringing the local, everyday retail-style creator into our community, where they can meet really awesome CPG brands that are trying to move product off shelves in retail and want to look at creators as the channel to do that. I've been doing this for about four years. We work with 400-plus CPG brands across the country and about 80,000 creators, and it's a joy that it leads me to meet awesome people like Kate and like you through this webinar. Thank you for being here.
2:45 – 3:35Emily: A little bit about this webinar you signed up for. If someone signed you up and you're wondering why you're here, we're going to be talking about all sorts of topics around velocity. Landing your first retail placement feels like the finish line, but it's really just the start, and the bar continues to rise. We'll talk about Kate's early decisions at a variety of places she's been, and the framework you can take with you that holds up no matter what stage of business you're in. Kate, I would love to hand you the mic to introduce yourself to our webinar attendees.
3:35 – 4:43Kate Kasch: Thank you all so much for joining. I'm so excited. I thought maybe one or two folks would join, but I'm so glad to see what a great audience you have, Emily, although that's no surprise. I'm so happy we met back in some month of this year, and I'm excited to join you again today. I'll share a little bit about who I am and my career, to give some credence to the fact that I can talk a bit about velocity. I was lucky enough to get my start in CPG right out of college with a job in logistics at the Wrigley Company. During my time there, folks believed in me and saw potential for me to continue my career, so shout out to Chris Avery, who's the chief customer officer at Ritter Sport these days. I ultimately spent about 16 years within what would become the Mars organization, through Mars' acquisition of Wrigley, including some time on the KIND brand.
4:43 – 5:34Kate: It was during my time on the KIND brand, before Mars acquired KIND, that I was introduced to the story of Daniel Lubetzky. Some of you might watch Shark Tank, eat KIND bars, or follow him on Instagram. I was really inspired by him. He had a two-pronged mission for KIND. First and foremost, very seriously, it was to change the world with food. He was looking to create peace in the Middle East, believe it or not, and get folks from all walks of life to work together for the greater good. As he developed the KIND brand, the second part was to bring better-for-you food to more consumers and make it more accessible. I was truly inspired by that mission and still am today, and it's because of that I took what felt at the time like a crazy leap and joined another brilliant founder, Daniel Goetz, on a brand called GoodPop.
5:34 – 6:26Kate: GoodPop is very much the same. Daniel's mission is to change the way we treat ourselves with real food and better-for-you food. I spent four years there. When I joined, the brand was very small, and it has grown much bigger over the last five years, reaching households across the country. We greatly expanded distribution from the natural channel and some limited distribution within Whole Foods to Whole Foods globally, Sprouts, and our friends within the natural channel, then into places like HEB, Publix, Costco, Target, Walmart, and beyond. It was a life-changing journey, and I'm really proud of what we accomplished as a small but mighty team.
6:26 – 6:59Kate: From there, I took another leap and joined a founder in the cookie business, which is a very challenging category. That role was really about how to turn around a business that wasn't successful across all metrics and take it where it needed to go. We made a lot of change in one year. We raised money, changed packaging, and got back into some retailers we had lost. You walk in thinking you know everything, but boy, I learned I still had a lot to learn.
6:59 – 8:33Kate: Around November of last year, through a relatively chance encounter with the chief customer officer at Hershey, I was introduced to the world of Hershey, a company I never saw myself working at, but I was very impressed with the team there. It brings things full circle with the mission of The Hershey Company, which is ultimately to drive profits to fund the Milton Hershey School. You can Google it, I can tell you more, or you can go see the Hershey movie coming to theaters everywhere this Thanksgiving, which tells the story of Milton Hershey, who gave his fortune to a school for socially and economically disadvantaged kids. That continues to be the main mission for the company today.
Kate: At Hershey, I lead what we call growth channels, which are essentially customer paths to purchase that are growing faster than traditional channels. That includes Costco, Target, Whole Foods, and Sprouts, but also our ecommerce business, including last-mile retail partners such as Instacart, DoorDash, Uber Eats, and GoPuff. It's been a wild almost six months, very different from how I spent the previous seven years, but as I was telling Emily before we started, they've been six of the best months of my career so far. I'm very happy to join you all.
Is $500K the Price of Admission? Choosing Your Path to Retail
8:34 – 9:25Emily: You made a great decision, and I didn't know anything about the Hershey story. I love that you gave a shout out to the movie. We should have a viewing party. What I'm so excited about with this conversation is the range, from the big Hershey brand down to the small, when you joined GoodPop. For the people on this call who are just getting into retail or thinking about it, getting to retail is part one, and part two is driving success there. I recently talked to an investor in CPG brands who said that if you don't have $500,000 to invest in your retail launch, you might fail. It was a really bold statement. What's your reaction to that? What actually needs to be true once you get on shelf to begin the process of driving velocity?
9:25 – 10:22Kate: It's a great question. Is that true, and how do I react to that? There is a story where that is absolutely true. If your first retail launch is going to be at Target, that's probably an understatement on the investment you're going to need. Target is an incredible partner. They do a phenomenal job launching brands that are right in that cultural zeitgeist moment and super on trend, and they have really taken some brands to the next level and enabled them to realize their dreams. Slotting at Target is no joke. So is the investment you need to make in Roundel to reach the digital shopper at Target, and the investment you're going to make in promotions to make sure this is a mutual partnership for both you and Target. That is very expensive, so I would say that is true.
10:22 – 12:02Kate: I would also suggest that while we watch big brands, or brands that get a lot of buzz and a lot of investment, launch first at Target, that is not the only way to go. There are probably two other main pathways. The first is, of course, ecommerce, and we can talk about that. The other path through retail, especially when you're an emerging brand in a better-for-you space, is through an extensive network of retailers within the natural channel who will partner with brands differently when they know you have something that solves a problem for their shopper every day.
Kate: Take GoodPop, a brand that started totally grassroots and bootstrapped through and through, and still is today. Daniel grew that brand at the beginning door to door, at places like Gelson's and PCC in the Pacific Northwest. When you have a brand in those retailers that resonates with the shopper who's walking in routinely, and you get that pickup off shelf, it enables you to go inch by inch to scale the brand and get the velocities you need to take you to the next door. As you do that with a profitable P&L, you collect both loyal shoppers and some of the dollars you'll need when you make the leap into Sprouts, Whole Foods, Target, Walmart, or even, frankly, Amazon.
12:02 – 12:40Emily: Some brands have the benefit of starting on ecommerce, but in the example of GoodPop, being categorically in frozen would probably make that a little more challenging. I think about some of the brands that are refrigerated, which aren't as common to purchase in the digital experience. I'd love your perspective on ecommerce, because it's such a potentially solid foundation for building brand awareness and understanding who your audience and community are, so the move over to retail is maybe a little less jarring.
12:40 – 13:35Kate: Building a brand on ecommerce is just a different set of challenges. One thing I'll highlight is that when you go down these two different paths, you have to think about everything very specifically. Packaging has to be different. When a shopper is at the shelf for 8 seconds making a decision, how do you use all the real estate on your package to communicate to a consumer who has maybe never heard of you why this is the brand they need to spend their $7.99, $8.99, or more on? On ecommerce, you probably want to be very aesthetically pleasing. You want a package the consumer wants to dwell on. They can click through nine pages of content and look at reviews, which becomes very important there. How you position your brand visually is really different in the two spaces.
13:35 – 15:22Kate: Launching a brand on ecommerce, you have the luxury of being able to find your shopper online and talk to them specifically. That is incredible, because you can build a really loyal base of mavens who will go on to tell the world and become content creators for you. What's similar when you put a brand on the shelf at retail is that you have to know what your brand really stands for and what problem you're solving for the consumer. In a grocery store, is it the ingredients? Is it the kid crying in the grocery cart? Is it wanting to be a good mom with the ingredients you give your kids, while knowing they're only going to eat it if it tastes good? Is it watching your weight but still wanting a sweet treat for yourself at night? Is it being busy on the go and needing something with at least 20 grams of protein to fill you up, while still feeling good about the macros? I'm just learning all of this, like taking the zero off the calories.
Kate: Whether you're online or in brick and mortar, you have to know the problem you solve, and you have to validate that beyond your own inner circle, because telling a boardroom for 10 minutes why your brand matters is very different from eight seconds on shelf or two minutes online. You have to know you've got the right proposition. You have to know you've found the right target audience, whether that's the right retailer with the consumer who's in that mindset or, online, the right member or shopper. Then you have to know what's going to deliver. Those are probably the universal truths in either path you take.
15:23 – 15:50Emily: So you can validate that through ecommerce. Are people buying it and responding well once they land on the page, and are they coming back for more, time and time again? Those seem like really good signals. If you start on ecommerce, what would you look at to know this brand is ready for a shelf? Does anything come to mind?
15:50 – 16:53Kate: Some of my peers would probably tell me I live and die too much by it, but ratings and reviews. What are the people who are willing to put in the extra 30 seconds saying about your brand in a relatively anonymous forum? I once got a review on a product that said, "This tastes like static now." That might sound hurtful, but I actually loved it. It was so honest, and you know what? Maybe it did taste like static. When your ratings start to tip above like products and like brands out there, and you really start to see through your ratings and reviews that you're standing out and different from those other brands, that's certainly the time. Another measure is how many you're getting. How many consumers are purchasing? You can have a loyal fan base of 10, but expansion of reach is going to be important for your velocities on shelf.
16:53 – 17:43Kate: As long as you're getting engagement from the consumer you thought you were targeting, along with the right ratings and reviews and the right repeat purchases, that's absolutely a phenomenal story to take to retail. The one piece I'd add is that your path in retail is not everywhere at once. The other thing investors will ask is how many doors you're in, and I would challenge that. It's not how many doors I'm in, it should be how many units per store per week am I selling in the places that I am in. Have I found my target shopper? Do I know who they are, why they're shopping it, and what they're buying? How does that relate to the rest of the category?
Earning Early Velocity: The Right Store, Package & Price
17:43 – 18:46Emily: That's super helpful. We chatted with the Everyday Dose team earlier this year, and it was interesting to hear that they were DTC first and built a massive email list and a massive Facebook group community. For them, getting on shelf was such a no-brainer. It was just another way to meet their customer where they already were and where they preferred to buy the product in the moment. I loved that webinar because it was so tactic-driven on how to think about moving from one stage to the next. When you think about velocity and how many units are moving per week, how do you think about the early days, whether at GoodPop or Muddy Bites, of getting that first movement? Was there anything that felt like an unlock, given your background, and what were some of the early growth channels you saw? These change year over year, but some of them might hold a little more steady.
18:46 – 19:42Kate: Thinking specifically about how you ensure those early velocities come true, it's the work that goes in even before you sell into a retailer. A retailer is going to tell you what they believe their shopper is missing. You're going to come to that retailer with data you believe is true about why your product is the thing their shopper is missing. It's important that you've thought through the universe of the decision making, both for the retailer and ultimately for the shopper. That means the quality of the product has to be there. We all know this: quality of product is make or break for a brand. No matter what promise it delivers, whether it's health and wellness or a beautiful complexion, it has to taste or feel good. It has to be something the consumer wants to do again and again and again and can fit into their lives.
19:42 – 20:39Kate: Then you have to make sure that, out of the gates, your proposition matches the consumer's desire to purchase it. That comes down to three things: what you're going to communicate, the value, and where you're going to do it. Start with where. You make your choice of which retailers you're going to pitch depending on your budget and what VC capital you have in your back pocket. My recommendation, if you have the luxury, is to go slower here and prove it out over time with the right retailers who have your core consumer in their doors at that moment. From there, there's going to be work around shelving, of course, but really choosing the right store with the right shopper in it at the right time is key.
20:39 – 21:58Kate: The second piece is how you use packaging. What does it need to communicate first? Seven grams of fiber? Twenty grams of protein? The source of sugar? That it's delicious? Understand the hierarchy of what your shopper is going to look for, and put that on package to make your package work as hard as it can for you, specifically at retail, where you don't have nine content pages. An example of that, going back to GoodPop: we did a lot of consumer research, and it didn't have to be expensive. You mentioned Everyday Dose. For us, it was emailing our list and asking what mattered most. It turned out that the source of sugar, that it comes from real fruit, was the single most important thing consumers used to choose when they looked at Popsicle and all the other sugar pops and then looked at GoodPop. They picked it up because it was made from real fruit. We put that front and center, 100% fruit juice and no added sugar, and we saw a velocity impact almost immediately when the packaging hit the shelf. That's how we knew the packaging was working for us.
21:58 – 22:50Kate: The third pillar, having talked about the right place and the right vehicle to communicate your message, is whether the value is right. This one is tricky, especially in this economy, where things are costing more and more. Is the right consumer willing to pay what you want them to pay for this product? How can you influence your price architecture relative to the competition? Is it better to be at a higher absolute price point with a higher count, because that's the efficiency of your line? Or is an investment needed from you in the early stages to reduce your count and hit a lower price point on shelf that will enable a consumer to try it? That value piece has been important my whole career, but in the last three years, it's more important than ever, as consumers make trade-offs on what's in their cart or basket based on an absolute weekly budget.
The right store, shopper & moment
Pitch the retailers whose doors already hold your core consumer, and prove velocity there before expanding.
A package built on your shopper's hierarchy
Lead the front of pack with the one claim your shopper values most, because the shelf gives you no content pages.
We put that front and center, 100% fruit juice and no added sugar, and we saw a velocity impact almost immediately.
A price architecture that invites trial
Weigh count against price point relative to the competition, since shoppers now buy against a fixed weekly budget.
When the Retailer Wants a Different Price Point
22:50 – 23:45Emily: That's interesting. I talked to a founder recently who has a line of cognitive-support gummies. She just got into a massive retailer, and her conversation with that retailer was that she really thought it would do much better in a lower count versus the size they chose, because it's already hard for consumers to understand this category and how the product is different from other gummy supplements. The retailer said no, this is what we want. I'm curious about those moments where you know your customer best. How do you have those conversations? She's struggling to get adoption because the price point is so much higher, and the product has eight seconds to win someone over to spend two to three times more. How would you think about that problem?
23:45 – 25:28Kate: I've had the privilege of sitting across from retailers, even in the same week, who all have very different opinions on this. I'd say two things. The first is that it sounds like she really knows her consumer and her shopper, and she may know the history. How do you bring fact-based, numerical selling in front of the retailer to give them proof points so they can tangibly understand what she's saying? If she has seen that at $5.99 it turns 3X what it does at $12.99, how does she show that to demonstrate the increase in value if she's able to bring a lower price point to the shelf? This is where you really have to sit with yourself before you go into that selling moment. It's not just about a three-page PowerPoint that shows how beautiful the product is or how amazing the idea is.
Kate: It's about thinking through the objections you might hear. What have your friends, your family, your investors, and your peer group asked questions about? How do you build that into your story? I used to make my own Q&A documents of all the questions I would get asked, like the difference between one type of sugar and another, and I would study them so I could answer the questions in those moments. Ideally, the retailer is trying to do the right thing for their shopper, but they don't know your product. You might be right about how you introduce this product to consumers, but you're not going to get there on gut alone. How do you find the facts that will support you, so the retailer says, "Okay, cool, let's try"?
25:28 – 26:19Kate: The other piece is that you're not always going to move them. If their set sits between one price point and another, that's where they see you, and it's the only space they have for you today, what are you going to do to make that work for you? How do you invest in digital couponing? Could you run a program where, for grocery pickup orders, you put a sachet of your product in the bag with a coupon for a repeat purchase? Be prepared for the scenario where you can't move them. If this is what they want to do, how are you going to get the fans of your brand to rally behind you and make it work anyway? It means thinking a little differently about how you reach consumers.
What to Do When Velocity Isn't Moving
26:20 – 26:54Emily: That's interesting, because you go in believing you'll make it successful, but there's backup planning, too. Once you've got on shelf, what's your backup plan if velocity isn't moving and units aren't moving at the clip you want? How many things would you keep in your back pocket to deploy? Some things take time depending on the vendor you work with. Spinning up a digital coupon may take a week or a month. How would you think about the strategies you could deploy if you weren't seeing the velocities you were planning on?
26:54 – 28:08Kate: You always go in planning for success, but always go in planning for needing to take evasive maneuvers. What I didn't mention before is that as you launch a new brand, specifically on shelf, you should ask what tactics you can use at launch to get the most attention right away and get those velocities out of the gates. That matters especially for small brands. Big brands will turn on national media when they're at 80% ACV. My whole career, we always said distribution is the best investment. Do you buy an end cap right away? Do you partner that end cap with an introductory coupon for the first two weeks of your launch? We know consumers are habitual and are probably coming into that retailer at least once within those two weeks. They see the display, they're armed with the coupon or the TPR, and they're going to try it because it's disrupting them in their shopping journey. You've got the right package, and you've got a compelling price offer that makes trial less risky for the shopper. That's something you can do right out of the gates.
28:08 – 29:12Kate: If that doesn't work, there are, of course, very targeted approaches you can take to digital couponing. There are groups you can partner with, you can create a loyalty program, or you can Venmo consumers to try it when they send in the receipt. You can try all of that. I might also have an oversensitivity to reacting to non-responsiveness from the consumer: pay attention to the no as much as the yes. If shoppers aren't picking it up, walk the set. What else is in that set that might be working better than you, and what can you learn from it? Are you $2 higher than the gummy next to you that promises the same thing? That's really risky. Or maybe your gummy has biotin, and you didn't include that on the front of pack. Especially as an agile, smaller brand, you need to be prepared to look inward and ask what about your product isn't working yet.
29:12 – 30:15Kate: In these early days of retail, it might feel like you've hit print and that's it, but I think you'll find most retail partners are really willing to say, "Okay, got it, but if you change it to the purple, let's try it and see what that does." If you come back with a plan and say, "We still firmly believe $12.99 isn't the right price point and $5.99 is. I didn't show you this detail up front, but this is what I've learned, and this is what I want to bring back," retailers might say, "We believe in this product, and we would like to try this." From Walmart to Costco to Whole Foods to Target and everyone in between, I've yet to meet a retailer who, when they believe in a proposition, especially an emerging brand proposition, isn't willing to try something else to see if they've just slightly missed that initial mark.
30:15 – 30:27Emily: That's really encouraging. It's not all said and done. You get to really work with the retailer, especially when they believe in you.
30:27 – 30:59Kate: I would say this, though: it's up to you to start that conversation.
Kate: Come to them and say, "We have been monitoring our units per store per week since launch. We saw initial trial at this level, and it has fallen off to this. We believe the price is too high and the consumer isn't willing to come back. We want to try this." You go to them with a solution.
Emily: Because if you wait, they're going to ask why you aren't being proactive, since they've noticed it too. What I'm hearing is that proactive communication can go a long way.
30:59 – 31:24Kate: I always say, if a buyer is in a meeting and someone senior asks her, "What's with brand X? Why isn't that working?" and that happens, you're too late. If the buyer is armed to say, "We've been having conversations, we believe the price point may be too high to introduce trial, and we're looking at some alternatives, some programs coming in the rest of the year, and even a potential alternative pack," then great, she's got it.
Pricing Through Distributors & When the Data Disagrees With Your Gut
31:25 – 31:46Emily: I've seen a couple of really good questions come in. Michael asks: for a super-premium product, how do you successfully break through with retailers when distributors are the primary path to purchase? "We don't sell direct, so distributors are a critical gatekeeper and have a significant influence on the final price retailers see. How should brands think about driving velocity and retailer demand when you don't fully control that part of the equation?"
31:46 – 32:47Kate: It's a really good question. Distributors are incredible partners, and it's so important to have really strong relationships with them. I've seen two parts of this overlooked, though. Some people overlook the distributor and how important they are to enabling your success. Get your distributor partners on board, get them to believe in the brand, and help them understand what you're doing and how you're different. That is really important. The other piece is don't over-depend on your distributors to sell in the product for you. Make sure you are also selling directly to the retailers. I would encourage every single brand on here, whether or not you're with KeHE, to also try to get in front of Sprouts yourself. Don't assume KeHE can do that for you, because their job is to get the product on the shelf. It's still your job to sell it, no matter what.
32:47 – 33:53Kate: On the price point, it's so difficult to navigate. Some folks won't always tell you what their distributor markup is, but you can generally get an idea. Build out what your P&L looks like and what that final price on shelf is going to be. Folks will say, especially if they're talking about something like a Harris Teeter out east, "Oh my gosh, the distributor markup from KeHE is 30%?" Remember that KeHE is doing a really important job that allows Harris Teeter to function, which is stocking the shelves for them. That allows for savings in other places, so there's a reason that markup exists. Work from the price you're going to sell to the distributor, incorporating the charges there. What is the price you believe they're going to sell to the retailer? What is the necessary retailer margin they still need to get to? What is the price you're going to land on shelf? Do that for every single retailer, because you might find you're $8.99 at one retailer and only $5.99 at another. I've seen the gaps be that big.
33:53 – 35:14Kate: Then you have to ask yourself really critical questions. Number one, can I fund differently to have a lower price at the retailer pulling through a distributor? What will that mean for how I have to support the direct retailer? Number two, does that mean I need to wait to go to the retailer where I'm going to be really, really high on shelf until I have a built-in audience who's going to be excited to see me there? Then how do I incentivize that audience differently? Can I afford to run more TPRs at that retailer, or fewer, deeper TPRs? Can I target that retailer's shopper with a loyalty coupon or a membership program? At the end of the day, the price you end up at on shelf is still something you can control, because you ultimately will charge the price you can charge for it. It's hard to just say, "Oh, I'm too expensive there." Build the cost of that distribution into your P&Ls, and understand the impact it might have on velocity, or the trade-offs you might have to make to fund that channel a little differently.
The GoodPop Beverage Lesson: When the Velocity Numbers Told a Different Story
35:17 – 35:47Emily: Amazing. Look at all these questions. We got the 30-minute meeting warning from some folks, and I'm so proud of myself for remembering the Q&A. I love this question from Shannon: you've lived both sides of this, fighting for your first data point and defending decades of it. Was there ever a moment in either job where the velocity numbers told you something completely different than your gut was telling you?
35:47 – 36:52Kate: That's a great question. Yes, absolutely. Going back to what we were talking about earlier around fact-based selling, founders are incredible at trusting their guts, but even founders need to validate with facts, whether from consumer testing or what's happening in the marketplace. I'll give you an example where my gut told me something that ultimately was not right for the masses. At GoodPop, things were going so well. We were taking share, growing points of distribution, getting into Target, and launching at Walmart. It was so exciting, and we thought, "Our mission is to change the world and bring better products to consumers with less sugar, and sugar from 100% fruit juice. We should expand into beverage." I'll let everyone on the call take a minute to laugh at our naivete. We had a vision for a product, and we did a little bit of research, using our network to understand that juice was declining.
36:52 – 38:08Kate: Parents specifically were looking for products with less sugar to give their kids to drink. At the time, natural flavors were being called the next public enemy number one after dyes, which didn't necessarily pan out to be true. We thought, "We buy so much juice. We have a great relationship with the raw material juice providers. We sell a shelf-stable freezer pop to a lot of the buyers across the juice category at our retailers. Why don't we make a 100% fruit juice-flavored sparkling beverage in a recyclable can?" Consumers kept telling us they hated the plastic pouch, they hated the non-recyclable Tetra Pak you have to take back to the store, and they hated the plastic straw because it's killing the turtles. We thought we had the perfect proposition: a mini can, a sparkling beverage, 100% sweetened by juice. We were really proud of it. Our gut told us this was the right thing, and in fact, our retailers' gut said the same thing.
38:08 – 39:30Kate: But we hadn't properly consumer tested it. We hadn't really done the calculus to understand that the core shopper who was telling us all that had actually already left the juice aisle. They were already bringing home sparkling water for their kids and were not serving juice anymore. We launched in a big way across retailers, from Costco, Walmart, and Sam's Club to HEB, Whole Foods, Sprouts, and Wegmans. We got incredible distribution right out of the gates, and the product didn't turn. It didn't resonate. Our guts told us that it should have, but it was in the wrong aisle with a price point that was too high, and where we put our ingredient bets turned out not to be true, so the product ultimately didn't deliver the flavor profile it needed to deliver. Boy, did we learn so much from that failure. What's wild is that four years later, while my son was at baseball practice, I took my twin girls to a little cafe, and they were selling basically the exact same product in 7.5-ounce cans. We were just too early.
39:31 – 39:47Emily: Now that you're seeing it, do you believe you were a little too early for the moment? People had moved on to Spindrift or LaCroix, and now maybe they're coming back to juice.
39:48 – 40:36Kate: I think we were too early. I do. I think we probably demonized natural flavors because we were a bit more progressive in our bubble than mass audiences were, and natural flavors would have given us a better flavor. We probably went in overconfident and should have spent another year on validation, and that would have told us where we needed to shelve it. We knew the game plan, and we knew the right retailers to launch with. We got interest, though, and that made it so easy, especially for me as the head of sales, to say, "Guys, Costco wants it right out of the gates. Walmart wants it right out of the gates. Let's go." That really taught me a lesson.
Kate: It needs to follow the step-by-step. It needs to be validated and consumer tested, with the packaging right, in the right retailers, in the right place, at the right price point. We were still competing with Coke, and not to go off on a tangent, but most of the cost of the product was in the can, because we couldn't buy cans at the scale of Coke. We had to weigh all of those considerations, and we were too excited. Maybe Daniel will bring it back someday. I hope he's not listening.
Emily: He'll probably send you a message and say, "Did you know this is a thing now?"
Kate: Oh my gosh, it's a sensitive subject for all of us.
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What Good Velocity Actually Looks Like, and Who Decides
41:18 – 41:50Emily: There's another really good question. I'm going to pull on some of these, because I do want to talk toward the end about the framework we've touched on in this conversation, but I think this is such a fascinating question: what defines good velocity? Should it be the same? Should it be some multiple of the retailer's category average? Who determines good velocity?
Kate: I love that question. Boy, is it close to my heart. Emily, you asked me what gets me jazzed and energized, and I get energized talking about velocity and how you measure it. Nerd alert.
41:50 – 42:35Kate: I understood that question in two parts: what defines good velocity comparatively to the category, and who's determining it. I'm going to take the second part first. When you're having a conversation that looks serious and the retailer is continuing to swipe right on you as a brand, ask them what good velocity looks like, because you can always hold that as the gold-standard metric. They absolutely know what they want to see you deliver, and they're modeling that out.
42:35 – 43:50Kate: What does good velocity look like more broadly? Is it some multiple of the category? I wouldn't concern yourself too much with multiples of the category. What I would do, if you have the data available, is look not by brand but by item, and understand what the average velocity is. Big brands love dollars per TDP. I love units per store per week and dollars per store per week, because they're so tangible to anyone you're talking to, whether inside the building at a big corporation like The Hershey Company or at a retailer. It's something everyone understands. How many units are you moving off the shelf, and how many dollars are you generating off the shelf with this product per week? You want to be in the top 50% of the items in the competitive category, and I'm going to come back to that, because it's important. You want to be on par with or outperforming the closest comparable product on the shelf.
43:50 – 45:14Kate: Now, let me come back to how you define the category. I have seen brands, and I've been a part of them, who nickel-and-dime how the category is defined. They'll say, "If you look at non-dairy, better-for-you almond clusters, we're number two," which is very different from ranking 160th in a list of 188 SKUs in the frozen novelty set. My advice is that when you look at comparative category velocity performance, go wider, no matter how tempted you are to go smaller to tell the story. You can go smaller to tell that story. You can absolutely defend the incrementality of being the number one non-dairy ice cream bar. You still have to know how that sits within the larger frozen novelty category as a whole, within the larger cookie set, or within the larger protein bar set. Even when a retailer doesn't understand that you might be incremental to the set, that incrementality, if you're number 60 out of 188 total but the number one non-dairy item, isn't going to matter as much as it can if you're delivering that incrementality in the top 50% of total items in the set.
45:14 – 46:07Kate: That's important to understand, because it will certainly help you speak to the success of your product, but it also gives you that undeniable look in the mirror: is this resonating with this shopper? From there, if the answer feels like, "Gosh, I really wish this was turning 2X faster," you can start to diagnose. It also matters because I've been with founders of lots of wonderful brands who will say things like, "If we can just get one more unit per store per week, we're going to be in the top 10%." That sounds great, but if you're only doing one unit per store per week, you're actually looking to double your velocity. It's really important to understand the context of what you're measuring.
Validation Doesn't Have to Be Expensive
46:08 – 46:20Emily: Wow, I love being in Kate Kasch school. That's so helpful. There are still a few more questions, some of them more rapid fire, like this quick one from Vincent: what consumer product testing tool do you use most?
46:20 – 47:23Kate: It's very different in my life today at The Hershey Company, but when I was at GoodPop, you do not have to overcomplicate this. Use an email list or a poll of your Instagram followers. If you know your target demographic is kids between the ages of 7 and 11, there is nothing stopping you from putting something in the local Facebook community group that says, "Will pay in popsicles. Looking for parents of 7- to 11-year-olds to come chat about a product." At GoodPop, we did concept testing across all sorts of creative groups, as well as some more up-and-coming groups you can find. One that sticks in my mind as really user-friendly, with a super-fast turnaround, was a group called Upsiide, with two i's, as I recall. The rates were really reasonable, you could reach a broad audience and form the test you needed, and they could turn around results within 24 to 48 hours.
47:23 – 48:05Kate: What I would say is that the questions you ask in consumer testing are as important as the answers you get back. Try not to lead the witness. This is where AI can be really helpful. If you're planning to ask people about their habits when they get home from work, ask ChatGPT, "What am I missing?" It can help you realize you might want to start with what time of day they come home and what their mood is. You don't have to know a lot going in, and that's where AI can be a really helpful tool, because it will help you parse out the questions you need to be asking.
48:19 – 48:37Emily: Mike from Force of Nature, another guest we had on last month, said the same thing in such a great conversation: don't overcomplicate it. Email your list and ask some questions. Your customers like you, and they want to give you good feedback to be helpful. You don't have to over-nuance it, but I do agree about the questions you ask. Otherwise, you get answers back that aren't helpful because you didn't really think the questions through.
The Velocity Framework, Getting Back on Shelf & What's Next
48:37 – 48:51Emily: Back to this framework, going from GoodPop to Hershey. If we were to distill the conversation, what framework can people take around velocity and how to think about it, from baby brand to adult brand?
Kate: I'm going to turn more units per store per week if I resonate with the shoppers who are in this retailer, shopping this category. As an emerging brand, as a founder with big ideas who wants to change the world, know that your shopper is in the store with a budget, probably with a list. How do you disrupt them enough that you can solve a problem for them that is top of mind, right here, right now? You can remind them of the problem and tell them you're going to solve it, very, very quickly. If you don't yet know who your target shopper is, who resonates with this product or this idea, what problem you're solving, and, probably more overlooked, how you do that differently and better than everyone to your left and to your right on the shelf, you're not ready.
50:03 – 50:54Kate: Here's what it looks like when you can say it. I'll use GoodPop, which had two core demographics. One of them we knew was highly educated, high-income parents looking to treat their kids better than the stuff they grew up with, full stop. What is the problem statement? "I want to treat my kids, but feel good about doing it." Okay, great. Where do we find those folks? We knew they were going to be shopping at Whole Foods, Sprouts, PCC, MOM's, and Gelson's, so that's where we needed to start. When we're on shelf, what are we going to tell them? What are the things that matter most? Sugar, and the source of the sugar. That's such an easy one.
50:54 – 52:13Kate: Here's a quick anecdote. There was a buyer named KD. For a long time, I thought her name was Katie. She was so influential, a buyer in the San Diego region of Costco. It was the first time I had ever sold one-on-one to Costco, and I knew all my stuff. She listened, she asked questions, and she was very receptive. Then she took my flat, folded-up box and said, "Come with me." I thought maybe I was going to be given a gold star. That's not what happened. She put the box behind the cubicles with the glass at the top and said, "Now step 10 feet backwards. Is this saying anything that you just told me?"
Kate: I said, "Nope." She said, "Come back when, from 10 feet away and behind a glass door, it's telling the shopper everything you've just explained about this product. Then you're ready." Yes, ma'am. It did, and GoodPop has had a long and pretty big relationship with Costco, but boy, in that moment, I thought, "Noted. Thank you, KD."
52:14 – 52:36Emily: Wow, that is such a great story, because that buyer knows that level of nuance, and going into that conversation, you don't know what you don't know. That stuck with you, and I'm sure the advice to everyone here is to do the same, depending on your value prop.
Kate: Take a flat into a store, put it on the shelf where you think it belongs, and ask: Can I see it? Does it stand out? What is it going to be priced at, and is that good or bad? Think about it that way.
Emily: What I'm really getting from this conversation is that it's less about the units-per-week grind once you're in the store, and more about whether you're resonating with your consumer, how you'll know, and how you can know. Of course, the output should be velocity, but it's the knowing along the journey, so that you've earned the right, if you will, to be in Target because that's where your shopper is, your shopper knows they want X, and you know it sits perfectly on the shelf at this price. Don't rush that process.
How to Earn Your Way Back After a Retailer Pulls You
53:23 – 53:56Emily: It's so specific. I know we have a few minutes left, but I'm so curious about this, because it's kind of a gray zone, and I haven't gotten a lot of clarity on it. Maybe you can shed a little light here. You worked at a brand that got pulled from a shelf and then got back on the shelf. Sometimes when you're off the shelf, it feels like, "Well, that was a good run." There's possibility to get back, though. What advice would you give someone whose first run didn't go well but who could come back once something changes? It's probably nuanced.
53:56 – 54:51Kate: It certainly is nuanced, of course. I've got a sticker somewhere here that says CPG is harder than it looks, and it is harder than it looks, for a lot of reasons. One of those reasons is that when things aren't going well, we may have a tendency to trust ourselves the most. What actually worked was listening to the buyer give feedback on the things that hadn't worked and not just saying, "Thank you very much," but coming back and saying, "We heard you. This is what we changed in response. You were right, and thank you for the feedback. Can we try this? We've tested it, and we've looked at it." We looked at how we invest in everyday price instead of national media, because it needs to work on the shelf.
54:51 – 56:23Kate: Retailers can be intimidating. They're busy, they're dealing with hundreds of brands, and they get thousands of emails every single day, but that's because they have a job to do. Help them do that job. If you can come back and say, "I want to help you do that job. I've listened to your feedback, and I'm demonstrating that I can take your feedback, be agile, and work to ultimately reach our shared shopper," that goes a long way. I'll go further than you think: I've watched people push, push, push, and that never goes as far as being receptive and listening. That applies to the buyer and to your consumers when they tell you something. We can't all be Steve Jobs. When consumers say this isn't quite right, listen to them. When the buyer says this isn't quite right, don't walk away saying, "Ugh, they don't know anything."
Kate: I've heard that a lot. I always say, remember, they are seeing this same presentation from a hundred other brands that are promising the same thing you are. They're giving you feedback because it is real, not because they don't like that shade of blue. Listen, be receptive, and bring it internally. I'm not saying beat yourself up, but think about what part of that is right and what part resonates. How can you test it, and are you willing to change? That's ultimately what gets you back on the shelf.
Staying Connected With Kate
56:23 – 56:53Emily: Love it. We have so many more questions we didn't get through, which means we'll just have to do a part two someday.
Kate: This is the most fun I've had all week.
Emily: If people have curiosities or questions, do you mind if they open your LinkedIn DMs, or would you want to connect with anyone after? I know you're a busy gal as well. What's the best way for people to learn more about you and stay connected?
56:54 – 57:23Kate: We're all busy, but I have a lot of LinkedIn friends who have become real-life friends, and I like to consider you one of them. Definitely reach out, connect there, send a message, and remind me how we met. If you have a question, I'm so happy to chat. I really am that weirdo who, as I can find time, will hop on for 15 minutes and chat through stuff. I lucked into this career 21 years ago, thankfully, and I've enjoyed all of it. I'd love to get nerdy and get weird, and I wish you all so much luck. Thank you so much for having me, Emily.
57:24 – 58:34Emily: Of course. Before we leave, have you heard of Sunshine Buns yet?
Kate: Oh my gosh, I have, actually.
Emily: They're going to be on our next Cart Culture, which is so exciting! They're a bit of a newer brand, and we're going to have the founders on, so we want to be sure to tell everyone about it, and of course, you're invited to attend as a guest. For anyone here looking for the next conversation to get plugged into, we're really excited to talk to Kass and Chrisi, who've built this really iconic, fast-growth company and done it in such a fun, energizing way. Kate, this was so valuable, and I knew it would be when I met you. We had 20 minutes on a panel together, and I just felt like you had more to say but didn't have time to say it. Thank you for being in this format, where we could really expand on a conversation that really matters to this room. I can tell everyone here is so grateful, and so am I. Thank you, Kate, and thank you, everyone, for being here today. We'll catch you on the next one.
Kate: Congrats on your success, Emily.
Emily: Thank you!
Sunshine Buns cofounders Kass Martin and Chrisi Hammer join Emily next to share how they turned a family cinnamon roll recipe into a fast-growing frozen bakery brand. Registration details are coming soon.
Retail Velocity Questions CPG Brand Leaders Are Asking
Do you need $500,000 to launch a CPG brand in retail?
Not always. If your first retail launch is at Target, $500,000 is probably an understatement once you account for slotting, Roundel media to reach the digital Target shopper, and promotional investment. Target is not the only path, though. Emerging better-for-you brands can grow through the natural channel, retailer by retailer, building velocity and a profitable P&L before making the leap to Sprouts, Whole Foods, Target, Walmart, or Amazon. Ecommerce is a third path for categories that ship well.
What metric matters more than door count for a CPG brand in retail?
Units per store per week. Investors often ask how many doors a brand is in, but the better question is how many units per store per week you are selling in the stores you are already in. Whether you are in 10 stores or 10,000, your product needs to turn more units per store per week than the competitive products on either side of it.
What defines good velocity for an emerging CPG brand?
Start by asking the retail buyer what good velocity looks like, because they know what they want to see and are modeling it out. More broadly, look at velocity by item rather than by brand, using units per store per week and dollars per store per week. A strong benchmark is ranking in the top 50% of items in the competitive category while matching or outperforming the closest comparable product on shelf. Define the category wide, not narrow, so the comparison reflects the full set the retailer is managing.
How can a brand tell it is ready to move from ecommerce to retail shelves?
Look at ratings and reviews first. When your ratings start to rise above comparable products and brands, that is a strong signal. Then look at volume and repeat: how many consumers are purchasing, whether they are the consumers you meant to target, and whether they come back. Engagement from the right consumer, strong reviews, and repeat purchases together make a compelling story to take to a retail buyer.
What should a CPG brand do if velocity stalls after launch?
Plan for it before launch. Use launch tactics such as an end cap paired with an introductory price offer in the first two weeks to make trial less risky. If shoppers still are not picking it up, walk the set to see what is outperforming you, whether that is a lower price or a clearer front-of-pack claim. Then go to the retailer first with your units per store per week data and a proposed fix. If a senior leader has to ask your buyer why your brand is not working, you are too late.
How should brands account for distributor markups when pricing for retail?
Build the landed shelf price for every retailer: your price to the distributor, the distributor's price to the retailer, the retailer margin, and the final shelf price. Distributor markups around 30% are common and exist for a reason, because the distributor stocks shelves for the retailer. The same product can land at $8.99 in one retailer and $5.99 in another, so decide whether to fund a lower price, wait until you have a built-in audience, or adjust promotional support for that retailer. Sell directly to retailers too, rather than relying on distributors to sell in for you.
How can a small CPG brand run consumer testing on a budget?
Keep it simple. Email your list, poll your Instagram community, or post in a local Facebook community group to find the exact shoppers you want to hear from. Concept testing platforms such as Upsiide can return results in 24 to 48 hours at reasonable rates. The questions you ask matter as much as the answers, so avoid leading questions, and consider using AI to pressure-test your question set before you field it.
How can a CPG brand get back on shelf after being pulled by a retailer?
Listen to the buyer's feedback on what did not work, make changes, and come back showing exactly what you changed in response. Retailers see the same pitch from a hundred other brands, so their feedback is real. Being receptive, agile, and focused on your shared shopper goes further than pushing harder. One practical example is investing in everyday shelf price instead of national media, because the product has to work on the shelf.